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  • CC28 New Engines....

    As I was navigating CC's new website I noticed they were posting all the engine options for the various models. The standard offerings for the CC28 were Crusader 6.0 375HP gas.....D4 260hp Volvo diesel.....315hp Yanmar diesel.......and D6 310hp Volvo diesel. This got me to thinking with everything going tier-2 and electronic was there a Cummins that would work well.I did some looking and found that the QSD-4.2 liter seemed to be a good fit. I was also curious about conflicting answers I have gotten with regard to the possible fitment of certain combinations of engines, extra fuel and generators. I emailed CC and as most owners will atest they were superior in responding to my questions and did so in a rapid manner. I asked Keith if it was okay if I shared our Q&A with the board and he said that was fine as I let people know these were general answers and that the usual disclaimers were in force ie...specifications subject to change...etc.etc.....he said call him if reguarding any specific situation.

    So here it goes.............

    My first email to Keith........

    I have two questions reguarding the CC28 that I would appreciate your comments on.

    #1) I was curious if the Cummins QSD-4.2 was ever considered for powering the CC28.I now this would add require yet another "setup", in adddition to the current four,but it seems to be a good fit to me. From what I can tell it is a little bigger and heavier than than Yanmar but smaller and lighter than the Volvo D6. With the availabilty of Cummins service and offerings in 320 and 350 hp it just seems like an excellent chioce.

    #2) I have gotten conflicting answers reguarding the ability to combine the following options; six cylinder diesel engines, extended range diesel fuel tanks and auxiliarry generators. I have heard every answer possible, if you get a six it's no generator and no fuel,six and fuel but no generator, six and generator with no fuel.......etc. etc..... so what combinations are possible. I know there have been some minor changes to the engine bay so if the year of the boat changes the answer I would appreciate knowing that also.

    Keith's response to e-mail#1......

    >>>"The QSD - 4.2 is not listed on our price sheet, but if someone wanted us to build one we would. We have looked at the measurements and requirements on the engine and they seem to fall in line with what we are currently building."

    >>>"As for the engine room layout, you can accommodate both the Volvo D4's and the Yanmar 315's with a generator and extra fuel. The D6 Volvo will accommodate extra fuel, but a generator will be extremely tight and unserviceable. The extra fuel is added by installing two 28 gallon saddle tanks outboard of the engine room where the water and waste tanks are normally located. This is the same configuration as the standard gas boat which brings the total capacity to 256 gallons. The water and waste tanks are then moved to the front of the engine room. We redesigned the water and waste tanks so they would take up less room in the engine room and still have the same capacity. When we redesigned the deck in ' 05 we made the engine room larger by moving the aft bulkhead back. Let me know if there are any more questions."

    My second e-mail............

    Thank you for your quick responses. I had a couple of followup questions. The best I can tell the Yanmar-315(47.4" LOA) is 9.3 inches shorter than the Volvo D6(56.7"LOA) and 3.8 inches shorter than the Cummins QSD-4.2(51.2" LOA).......Do you think it would be possible to install a generator with the Cummins QSD-4.2 or is the Yanmar so tight to begin with that the loss of 3.8 inches would be too much to make it possible? I know that this is probably a more difficult question than it might appear because sometimes additional factors like the shape of the engine or the placement of other components can be just as important to servicability as general dimensions.

    Keith's reply to e-mail#2........

    >>>"The Yanmar 315 has approx. 9" between it and the genset at the closest point. The Volvo D6 is approx. 5" longer than the Yanmar with the same gear, but they specify a 7" area forward of the engine for service. This makes the D6 and genset combination too tight for service. From the limited time that I have looked at the 4.2 Cummins dimensions, it appears to be approx. 2" longer than the Yanmar. It seems that the 4.2 Cummins would fit with a genset, however until we looked at it closely, I couldn't say for sure."

    >>>"I don't mind if this information is shared on the site, as long as it is understood that there may be factors that could affect the installation of any engine. If a customer was interested enough in the Cummins we would certainly be willing to look into building one, however we have not yet."

    The QSD4.2 comes in 270hp, 320hp and 350hp I didn't ask him if they all could be used. I think the combination of service availability, power and economy would make this a killer engine for the CC28.

    A couple of other interesting things is to look at the rated fuel capacity in the new specifications and also trolling valves are also available on the CC28 now(according to the 2007 price sheet).
    Luke

  • #2
    CC28 New Engines

    xl883l0, thanks for posting all of the info that you have collected. I have a CC28 and am always looking at engines as well as other parts & systems. I looked at the new Cummins 4.2 at the Charleston Boat Show. It looks like a good fit with plenty of power. The only obvious drawback that I saw was the location of the water pump and, therefore, the impellar. After changing impellars on my Cummins 4b250's, I always check the location of such things on other engines. The location of the waterpump on the 4.2 is worse than the 4b250. That challenge would be magnified with anything additional in the engine room...Agitator

    Comment


    • #3
      What specifically did you see about the location of the water pump that would lead you to believe it is "worse" than the 4b250? They seem pretty much the same to me........what am I missing?
      Last edited by xl883lo; 03-28-2007, 04:15 PM.
      Luke

      Comment


      • #4
        qsd

        You might look at Boatdiesel.com and the thread under "QSD".

        Not very complimentary ...

        Tom

        Comment


        • #5
          Qsd 4.2

          Luke, they are very similar, but with the 4.2 on the display stand it was difficult just to put your hand flat on the impellar cover. I do not remember what the obstruction was, but the Cummins rep at the show acknowledged the problem and suggested that "maybe it was just a boatshow engine." I don't think engines are cast one off for boatshows. I reluctantly change my port side impellar and have learned some things, like unbolting the fuel filter for space and going in on top of the water pump to move the impellar outward. Additionally, the space in front of the 4b250 with no generator offers a pretty good place to work from. I may be too critical, but I'm not as limber as I used to be....agitator

          Comment


          • #6
            Tom,

            Maybe you could help me out......I tried looking at Boatdiesel and I could only see two threads in the Cummins (general)section about the QSD(they don't have a QSD section) one with three posts on a repower and the other, with 21, appears to be a peeing contest about VM motori if they are French, English or Italian and SAE vs. Metric hp......Since I am not a subsciber I can't view the whole post in archive I am sure there is more to it. If you could let me know any particulars about the QSD and the pluses and minuses it would be appreciated.
            I am familiar with some of VM's other products and know that they have played to mixed reviews.
            Luke

            Comment


            • #7
              boatdiesel.com

              Luke,

              I think it still costs only $25.00 to join Boatdiesel.com. I recommend anyone with diesel engines join.

              I think the point of the thread was that anything with the word Mercruiser in it has to be researched (even if it is associated with Cummins). OK, I am biased, I hate Mercuriser ...

              I have owned many a true Cummins engine in over the road trucks, and love them.

              I have read what the guys on Boatdiesel.com have written for a couple of years, and they are pretty knowledgeable and usually right on tract, although, I agree, in the thread we are reading about QSD's they do seem to be in a "peeing" contest. My attention was caught by their negative comments.

              I personally have never heard of a VM engine. If the new Cummins engine is just an adaptation of someone else's engine, then I am not sure I would want one. If it is a true Cummins engine, I am sure it will prove to be a good, basic reliable engine.

              My current CC28 has Cummins 4bta 250's. I am in the process of ordering a new one and wish I could order a Tier 2 common rail Cummins engine.

              If someone knows something about these engines, like Luke, I would like to hear about it.

              Tom

              Comment


              • #8
                VM Motori

                Tom,

                Here are a couple of links that will tell you more about who VM is. The relationship between all the players Daimler/Chrysler.....Cummins..... DetroitDiesel/MTU......VM Motori gets screwy with who owns who and who supplies what to who.

                Article about supply agreement:

                http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-111852765.html

                Wikepedia on VM Motori

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_Motori

                VM Motori website

                http://www.vmmotori.it/en/index.jsp
                Luke

                Comment


                • #9
                  VM

                  They are an adaptation of an VM (Italian) engine by Cummins. Essentially the ES/EI series listed on the Cummins engine page has been updated with the Bosch based fuel system and rebadged as the QSD . . . This is a very gross simplification, so please don't anyone jump on me about the multitude of details I have not indicated. They are generally small form factor, high output motors. My understanding is that when Cummins and MerCruiser partnered up they were trying to get i/o diesel packages to hit a segment of the market held really only by Volvo. Some of the other flow over to the 'true' Cummins engines QSB-C-L-M are of course the Smartcraft gauges and monitoring which is a Merc contribution . . .

                  I am not sure how I feel about the QSD engines. I have only seen a pair or two in service with varied results and this was admittedly 2 years ago when Cummins had not added much of their influence/technology to the engines yet . . .

                  Fundamentally I love the Cummins engines and how they push all of the boats. I had a 28 w/6B330s and a genset in her and it was a great package (tight but serviceable in the engine space). I do not however like that now with CumminsMercruiser there is a Brunswick element in the mix. Plus like someone else stated MerCruiser is not really high on my list of brand preferences from experiences in the past . . .

                  Boatdiesel is an excellent resource for kinds of nuts and bolts info . . . The lack of info on the ES/EI/QSD indicates the reality that right now these motors in this part of the world are not in high population yet.
                  Tres

                  http://www.virginiabeachboats.net
                  http://www.specialtyproducts.net

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Tom, it appears that we have common engines that are performing reasonably well. If you are so inclined let's share some of the data. Have you dealt with the injector problems that many 4bta250 owners seem to have?
                    agiatator

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      injectors

                      No, but then I only have 260 hrs on the engines and they are of 2005 vintage, so I think they probably have that issued solved.

                      The only problems I have had are:


                      1) bad thermostats (both engines) from the factory, fixed under warranty 3 trips and 10 days later; and

                      2) bad belt tensioners (again both engines); one was covered under warranty and the other I replaced.

                      Overall, I have been satisfied with the Cummins. Not as fast as other boats, but I am not a speed demon anyway, so it works out OK. I love the Twin Disc transmissions, very smooth.

                      I also do not get the mileage some of the other threads state. But I have bottom paint, tower, etc. 1.0 - 1.2 nm/gal is the best I ever do.

                      I am in the process of selling the boat because of draft issues. Mac says my only option (with a CC2 is to go with Volvo and Duoprop I/O, so I hopefully will be ordering one soon with that combination.

                      Any issues with yours?

                      Tom

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        CC28 4Tom,bta250

                        Tom, thanks for the info. I have had very good service and expected performance.
                        1. I replaced a thermostat and temp sending unit at around 500 hours.
                        2. A broken belt cover bracket early on.
                        3. I replaced a shredded imlpellar at 350 hrs
                        4. The only outside maintenance help that I have needed, except for the injector issues, was to have the heat exchangers pulled cleaned and inspected at around 550 hrs.

                        If the injector issue had not arisen, I would have no issues with these engines. I do not believe that Cummins has resolved the issue. They have been supportive, but the fix has been to remove and replace the injectors.

                        The boat is fast enough and very fuel efficient. It is slow out of the hole until really warmed up and then not quite as slow. I do not feel that the vibration or noise are particularly bad. I have lots of offshore hours on mechanical diesel boats for comparison, but no time on elctronic/common rail diesel powered boats. However, I am reasonably comfortable that I can trroubleshoot and fix problems on the mechanical engines.

                        I hope that you are able to solve your draft problem with a CC28 w/outdrives. It is a great boat, backed by great people....agitator

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